Monday 10 August 2009

Jewellery Trade Scams - Scrap Metal Refining

Call me Jack

Well, it would seem that even Jack's personal friends can get totally scammed. About a months ago we went to dinner with two other jewellers we have known for a few years. They had a particularly distasteful story to tell.

They are a husband and wife team who own a lovely shop in the East Midlands where they make bespoke wedding and engagement rings and other handmade jewellery. As such, they produce a certain amount of waste metal, which we in the trade call scrap.

So. What do we jewellers usually do with this scrap? We don't throw it away as its precious metal. We sell it to a bullion refiner, similar to those who offer money for scrap or broken jewellery on the high street. Normally, you would sell it back to the bullion dealer who sold you the metal in the first place as they will likely give you the best price on your account. However, in this case, my friends were cold called by a company called Recycling Trading Company (RTC) whose offices and refinery is in New Bond Street, London. Nice and safe, wouldn't you have thought? No - not at all - quite the reverse actually, and a scam that I am starting to hear more of committed by who we all think of in the trade as highly respectable companies.

Anyway. RTC cold called my friends and asked if they had any scrap for refining. Of course my friends initially said they always sent the metal back to the bullion merchant who sold it to them, but RTC said they could better the price. So, of course my friends said they we welcome to send their agent to collect a bit of silver scrap they had.

The agent arrived, my friends gave her just over a kilogram of scrap sterling 925 silver, which they would have sold back to the bullion dealer for around £200 on account. On the high street, from any shop taking scrap metal, you can get between £160-180 for this amount of scrap 925 silver in cash on the spot. RTC said they would pay around £20 more than the bullion merchant - so it seemed a sensible deal to my friends, who had already told RTC twice about their existing deal with their bullion merchant - so there was no mistaking the money that was expected for the goods.

Great - so if you can get an extra 10% on your silver through RTC, what can yo get for your gold and platinum? My friends were naturally expecting a cheque for £220, approximately, but to their horror one arrived for £57.50. At first they thought it was a mistake, so they phoned the company - they got a brick wall at the receptionist who wouldn't pass them on saying that all queries had to be put in writing. My friends are persistent though, so they eventually got a manager of RTC to phone them back - he said the silver melted down to around 250 grammes and that is what they had paid out on. But there was over a kilogram to start with? So what has happened? RTC stood their ground, saying that there was only 250g of actual silver in the sample. So the money remained as is, and that was that. Put any complaints in writing. Blunt as that!

As a jeweller myself, I know this is not right. I told my friends that refining has several processes to get back to pure metal: firstly a burning off of all the non metal solid particles (dust, any plastic or paper in the sample, etc) typically losing 5-10% of the weight; secondly a higher burn to melt all metal solids, losing up to another 5-15% of weight and then a separation burn at a very high temperature to separate all the alloys - now this one can bring the weight of actual precious metal (in this case fine 99.9% silver) to 35% of its original weight. A quick calculation suggested that this had been the process used.

Why is this a scam you ask? Well, on the high street you can get instant cash for 925 silver scrap of £160-£180 per kilogram. This is because the bullion refiners don't have to go past the first burn to refine it. Therefore you are going to end up with about 950g payable scrap at worst from solids or perhaps 850g if its dust. RTC must know this as they are refiners. Usually a company like RTC would pick up metal waste from dentists and so on, where precious metals have been used in fillings and are mixed with non precious metals or other materials. This sort of refining needs the high prolonged burn. Still, I'm pretty sure that RTC wouldn't pass up on getting maybe £275 a kilo for 925 sterling silver from any of their colleagues who will just refine it and sell it back into the market at treble that ... c'mon ... wouldn't they? They should know their business shouldn't they? I'm sure they do!!!!

SCAM SCAM SCAM SCAM. RTC, you are the lowest of the low. worse than insurance companies by far - your industry is shrinking due to the recession so you are preying on the trades you reply on to pick up your sales and SCAMMING them, ripping them off and then not dealing with their complaints.

I have been since told by my friends that despite 3 letters to RTC, who it turns out are owned by a French parent company called Norphone have got them nowhere and now they are considering legal action, not for the money, which is only £150 or so, but for the principle. What if it would have been gold and not silver? Their losses could have been thousands.

Shame on you RTC, Recycling Trading Company, Norphone from New Bond Street !

31 comments:

  1. Call me John

    Some friends of mine in London have made the same mistake...gold scrap this time so you can easily imagine their deception. Seems like it happens in Switzerland and Austria, too (a friend from Zurich told me).
    Best wishes

    John

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  2. Thank you for warning me!
    RTC are comming to see me on tuesday,
    I will tell them were to go.
    Many thanks

    Jeff

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  3. Had a very bad experience with RTC, wish I had seen your blog before I did "business" with them. I am currently in a battle with them, I will keep you updated...
    I am a small independent jeweller in London, and this has cost me quite a lot of money. Please please, we need to spread the word, anyway I will do my best...
    best wishes
    MD

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    Replies
    1. Hi MD - sorry to hear that. They seem to be quite unscrupulous. Good luck. My friends just gave up and took the loss.

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  4. Ich habe RTC 104 g Silber 235 g Altgold wobei 13g Zahngold,40 g 585er 10 g 333er und bekam 192,00 Euro

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  5. Hi, today I received a phone call from RTC Recycling offering buy my metal scrap. I`m a dentist and believe, I`m in Brasil!!!!! A representant of the company will arrive next week here to buy metal scraps. Suspecting and smelling some trouble, I used the Google search and found you! Thank you for your blog!! I`ll keep my eyes wide open!

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  6. THANK YOU! RTC have made an appointment to visit my premises in the next couple of weeks. Any ideas on how I can turn this one round?
    Jeweller.

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    Replies
    1. Sorry - I haven't been blogging due to illness - do let us know what the outcome was

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  7. stay away from this company. They are persistant and nasty, harrased my employees and tried to strong arm company information. When asked not to call again, they told me there was nothing I could do about it and would be calling me every three weeks. I have never had a more distasteful conversation with a cold call in my career. Just high pressured sales pitch that you can see through from a mile away that you are being set up for a scam.

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  8. what can we say about rtc that they are still scamming but they started hitting other territories like NY that is where we are located .We get a call stating from rtc stating that they can give use the best price for our polishing dust and sweeps so the sales rep comes to the store not knowiing that he is gonna take it back to paris to analize how much gold we will get from 3pounds of dust and 50gms of sweeps which the sales rep promised we will get a phone call on the gold that was refined from our dust and sweeps which we never did we just got a check in the mail for only 88dollars where we should have gotten at least 800-1000 dollars RTC is a total scam and they are liars . its a shame paris allows comp like that around to freely operate thanks to them i will never do business with anybody in france .
    thanks jt

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    1. Jack hears that JT - they are thieves it would seem

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  9. 16.2kilos, they returned 46grams from high grade sweep from my company!! I've been scammed 10's of thousands!! contact www.safergems.org
    My insurance company has heard of others too being scammed by RTC, Denis Tuil is the owner of Norphone Production, which owns RTC Together we can gather evidence and have him and/ or his technicians prosecuted for theft and put another scammer behind bars. Please contact www.safergems.org asap and the Retail Jeweller

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  10. I cannot believe what I am reading as the same incident has happened to me!!!We are a big wholesale jewellery company and we got offered by RTC to do some melting, so we sent approximately 161 grams of Palladium to them, not only have they taken half the market rate for Palladium, but they have only paid for 1/2 of it, not even telling us what the rest of the metal is...I dont care if I dont get my money back, but I think its time to put him behind bars and teach these people a lesson!

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    Replies
    1. Agreed - sounds like a class action to me ... perhaps we should set up a site for people who have an axe to grind?

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  11. Hi Just a quick comment (i posted one comment earlier today too...) to say that I HAVE CONTACT SAFERGEMS.ORG, they are willing to help me, I recommend EVERYBODY contact them so we have one large case to bring this RTC people to justice..., thanks to the last anonymous person from 18 july 2011 for giving me the details...regds

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    Replies
    1. Yes - thats what I'm talking about. I'll mention it to my friends

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  12. Hi we have the same problem with this company and we try also to bring them to the justice.

    Please contact us
    We need your help

    risto1975@hotmail.fr

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  13. I "sold" them 60g of high weight dental gold scrap. Usually this would pay $340-$400. I got my check today for 97% value...$16.75! SCAM SCAM SCAM! AVOID THESE PEOPLE!

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    Replies
    1. They are definitely rogue traders. I'm going to pass all these details on

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  14. Hi,

    good to read this. They've been calling us persistently which set off warning bells. On googling them your blog is the first address which comes up after their own website. Thanks for confirming my gut feeling here. I'll pass the warning on to other collegues. I'm in Germany so they are setting their net wide.

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  15. This goes out to everybody who has dealt with RTC
    Contact the the French Police, Tax office, and Trading Standards, insist on an investigation, do not stop until you get somewhere, they have to look into it by law, and they will be prosecuted!

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  16. Will do - thanks for your comment on RTC. Its clear that RTC from Paris are untrustworthy and should be in the hall of shame

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  17. Got ripped as a dentist. We sell our scrap as well, which is high in gold and palladium. What was $500 or better in scrap, we got a check for $12.50.

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  18. Hi,
    it happened the same with me!Their quotation per gram was a fraud!!!They are thieves!!!I am in Italy I would have liked to do a report but we don't have any oranizations like SAFERGEMS!I would wish to find this blog before :(.

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  19. Hi,

    I had the chance to read all your comments! Thanks for this? Has anyone got news on this - are they still "working"?

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  20. I worked there. It is a total scam.

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  21. While working there, we had dentists and jewelers on the phone who were practically crying from being ripped off by this company. These reviews are definitely true.

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  22. Totally true! I worked there too, I confirm ! It's a real scam for clients and employes as well. Hope someone will do something

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    Replies
    1. All the above is true.
      They now have some kind of office in Philadelphia / USA

      Delete
  23. Hello, I just made the same big mistake here in the Netherlands. I expected 1800-2000 euros and only got 400. I almost doubted myself, but after reading this blog, i'm sure its a scam.... It's crazy RTC works like this for years already! How is this possible?

    ReplyDelete

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